home ♪ ♪ amazing grace how sweet the sound ♪ that saved a wretch like me ♪ i once was lost but now i'm found was blind but now i see ♪ ♪ 'twas grace that taught my heart to feel and grace my fear

relieved ♪ ♪ how gracious deed that grace appeared the hour i faced ♪ >> amazing grace. we'll see you now at 10:00, another edition of "360." piers morgan starts now. tonight, two more funerals, two more impossibly small coffins what will america do to stop a madman. >> i am a supporter of the second amendment. but i believe it's time for us to move a different direction. >> and the congresswoman who

lost her husband in the long island railroad shooting. also, i'll go one-on-one with a gun advocate who said that lawmakers who vote for gun control have blood on their hands. could he be serious? and why the second amendment doesn't say what you think 2 does. plus a class gunned down, a teacher to protect them. main who lost his daughter. >> they believe that because the problem is guns the answer is guns. it's simply ridiculous. >> we'll go inside the mind of a killer. what dr. oz thinks we should do about mental illness. >> i think we need a homeland security approach to mental illness. thirst is "piers morgan tonight." good evening, final farewells today for two more 6-year-olds, victims of the terrible attacks in sandy hook. jessica rekos was a little girl who loved horses and asked santa

for cowgirl boots and cowboy hat and james mattioli who asked once how old do i have to be to sing on stage. president obama would support a man to support -- >> he is actually supportive of senator feinstein's attempt to revise the presentation that would represent the assault weapons ban. >> joining me is john engle. his cousin, 6-year-old olivia engle was killed. obviously, a hideous time for you, your family, how is your family coping with this? >> very privately. i mean, thank you for having us. thank you for putting some

attention on olivia rose. having some attention placed on olivia rose and her best friends and those families is giving the families tremendous comfort. and they're not watching the news. they're coping by basically staying with their friends and loved ones at home and focusing on each other. >> what kind of girl was olivia? >> she was a warm -- she was outgoing. she would light up a room with her smile. she would seek you out, ask you to play. she was a great, great big sister to her little brother. she wanted to teach him. she wanted to read to him. she was just such -- she was an angel. >> does her little brother, brady, he's 3 years old, does he have any concept to what's happening? >> no, he keeps asking, where's

via? where's via? he's acting like any 3-year-old should. he was completely innocent, and she was completely innocent, and he has september that innocence, even the nation has lost it. >> the lost innocence is a very strong factor in this. people just reeling from the horror of 20 children of this age, i have four children myself. i can't imagine literally nothing worse in the world to discover one had gone to school, you put your trust in the schools, the teachers, and they're all heroic, to lose one, to this maniac. armed to the teeth, is beyond everyone's nightmare. what does this say about america that this is happening, do you think? >> i think that this isn't only about america, i think this is part of the human condition. that, you know, there are troubled people out there, and

there have always been troubled people out there. and they -- and we can't explain. we cannot explain. and we seek answers but we cannot get those answers, and so we look to faith. we look to god. and we say we cannot control this. so we're going to focus on the things that we can control. we're going to focus on, you know, our loving family. they're not focused on adam. adam was clearly a troubled man and we can't understand that. and we're not seeking to understand that. >> is it any comfort at all to the family to olivia's parents, brian and shannon, that the whole world is grieving with them and for them? >> yes, the facebook page we put up -- they didn't ask for that. but their friends said, there's got to be something we can do for this family. we want to communicate with them and with them. and we want to put up this tribute for her. and the letters came in and

messages from arnoound the worl. parents, mothers, and they talked about her by name, olivia rose. though the parents are not watching tv and participating in the debate in this circus. they've seen that, and they've said this is tremendously supportive for us to know that we are not alone. at least 15 of these families are holed up in their homes very much alone. they're not watching tv. and they're not -- and this outpouring which is worldwide in scope is some of the only support they can rely on, so it's really important. >> john, you served in the u.s. military in the first gulf war. you were a first lieutenant, you told me, on the front line. and i thank you for your service. you know there's this huge debate about the type of weapon

that was used here. as to whether it should be confined to the military. you would have used weapons like this in a war zone. what is your view about this debate? >> i have to tell you, i don't consider myself an expert, and i didn't think that's the kind of thing that you want me on the show for. but i'm going to tell you that i was uncomfortable with guns before i joined the military. i slept with an m-16 in my sleeping bag for six months in iraq. i came away from the war no more comfortable with that weapon, and i have to say that i don't think anybody ever gets comfortable with those weapons. >> you didn't have anyplace in civilian hands in america? >> i have to say, i'd have to say no. >> john, i really appreciate you

coming in. i'm glad you paid a little tribute to olivia rose. she sounds an extraordinary young girl i wish her life had not been snuffed out in this terrible way. i can only extend to you and 84 parents and the family my deepest condolences. >> and despite what i say about guns and we should perhaps not have these guns available to us. i think the real way to keep this from happening again, is if everybody puts down the remote and they go and hug their child, kiss their child, their 20-year-old child. that 20-year-old child might have come out differently if he had had the warm and loving family that olivia rose has. >> well said, john. thank you very much. >> thanks. incredibly, gun sales are surging in the wake of the massacre at sandy hook elementary school, colorado and virginia, set one-day records in background checks over the

weekend. as thousands of people lined up to buy guns themselves. my next guest says there's blood on the hands, but of lawmakers who voted to ban guns from schools. larry pratt, the executive director of gun owners of america he said if more guns had been at sandy hook elementary school, most victims would be alive. mr. pratt, you've been aware that your comments have ignited a little debate. can you try and explain to me why you believe the answer to this is to arm teachers? >> well, the alternative is what we have seen, where people were reduced to waiting to be murdered, without being able to dough anything effective to protect themselves or adults, to protect the children. so it seems so obvious, since we have concealed carry laws in all of our country now, people can get a concealed firearm. and yet, we have laws that say not in schools. and so in the very places that

have been sought out by monsters such as the murderer of these adults and children, we're saying, no, we don't want you to be able to defend yourself. it's better that you just sit there and wait to be killed. and we find that morally incomprehensible. and deeply disturbing, that the desire to defend life has been so cast aside. and to whatever political correctness views guns as the ultimate evil. evil's in our hearts. not in the guns. >> why where the teachers put the guns? >> people can carry firearms in a concealed fashion. do it all the time. >> wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. in a school full of 600 children, including 5 and 6-year-olds, you'd have teachers walking around, carrying the guns on them, where they may possibly fall and allow a 5-year-old to pick it up and possibly misfire it. >> people are walking around

with guns outside of schools all over our country. and we don't have those kinds of problems. you can always play the "what if" game. >> but, mr. pratt, you have enormous problems in this country. you have over 300 million guns. you have 311 million people, many of which are children, you have more guns than adult in this country. and you have by far the worst rate of gun murder and gun crime of any of the civilized countries of this world. how could you possibly argue -- >> let me answer -- >> i'm asking you this question, how can you argue -- please stop laughing. please stop laughing, sir. >> you're saying what is your argument, then you won't let me answer the argument. >> if you can stop. i haven't asked you the question. >> repeat it. >> my question is this. if you can stop laughing for a moment. and it is this, why do you

believe given that you have 300 million guns in circulation, in the worst gun crime rate in any of the civilized countries of the world, that more guns is the answer to less gun murder? >> because the problem, occurs, sir, in those areas precisely where we have said no guns. the problem doesn't occur where the guns are allowed freely to be carried to be used by people. there we have very low murder rates. we have lower murder rates in other parts of the country than even in europe. than even where you come from. but what has created a problem in the united states, is to say in cities and schools, those are areas where we're not going to allow them to defend themselves? >> what is the murder rate in great britain for the last three years? >> it's under 3 for 100,000. >> just give me a number. >> it's actually .3 per 100,000. about a tenth of what it is in

your vaunted english bucolic country, sir. the fact of the matter with guns comes safety. if the guns are in the hands of the good guys. when you say the good guys can't have guns, the bad guys have a monopoly and horrible things sufficient as shootings at schools take place. >> the ar-15 as we've seen in the last three shootings, aur a aurora, the shopping mall in oregon and now sandy hook, the preferred weapon for young men who want to transfer hundreds of bullets of rapid fire if you have the right magazines. the president has stated he wants to ban weapons like this. what is your view? >> i think we need to ban gun control laws from people who need to protect themselves. the problem is not going to go away if we ban this or that gun. we've tried that. that doesn't work. doesn't work in england. you have mass murders there.

the solution is for people to be able to defend themselves at the point of the crime and not wait for 20 minutes for the police come. >> what you just said was an absolute lie. the gun murder rate in countries like britain or germany or australia, they've all suffered massacres many years ago, similar nature, they have 35 people killed a year. your country has 12,000. >> your murder rate is lower than ours that is true. >> lower? 75 against 12,000 in australia. >> violent crime rate is higher than ours as is the violent crime rate in australia. america is not the wild west that you're depicting. we only have the problems in our cities, and unhappily, in our schools where people like you have been able to get laws put on the books that keep people from being able to defend themselves. i honestly don't understand why you would rather have people be victims of a crime than be able

to defend themselves. it's incomprehensible. >> you're an unbelievable stupid man, aren't you? >> it seems to me that you're morally obtuse. you seem to prefer being a victim to being able to prevail over the criminal element. and i don't know why you want to be the criminal's friend. >> what a ridiculous argument. you have absolutely no coherent argument whatsoever. you don't give a damn, do you, about the gun murder rate in america? you don't actually care. it seems to me that the facts don't bother you, do they, mr. morgan? facts seem to bounce right off your head. you're speaking oblivious to -- what we do know, when you go to an area in the united states where guns are freely available, readily able to be carried legally, there you find the lowest murder rates. lower than the murder rates in europe. you go to our cities where we have cracked down on guns and people can't defense themselves and that's where the criminals have a field day.

>> how many guns did mrs. lanza have in her home? >> i don't know how many she had. that's not really the point. >> she had six guns, including four assault rifles, what happened her deranged son -- >> her evil son. her evil son. >> it doesn't matter what you call him. >> well, i think it matters, if you believe and understand that there is evil in the world, don't you don't try as your first line of defense to solve it psychiatrically. you protect yourself with a gun. >> let me finish my thread then, mr. pratt. so you have an evil young man who is living at home, clearly with serious troubles. and his mother has six firearms in that house. including the weapons that he used to murder 26 people, including 20 children, age 5. you are quite happy about that situation, are you? and you would be quite happy if

there are many more people in his position, in homes around america, where there are that number of firearms which could be used by mentally unstable people? >> americans with firearms in their homes typically have them locked in a safe. as i do. and as most gun owners certainly do. the fact that this woman did not and knew that her son was unstable, reflected poorly on her judgment. unhappily, she paid very dearly for her poor judgment. but that's not the reason that you should be able to come down on everybody else who's a law abiding gun owner who uses good sense and to say we've got to pay for that person's stupidity, for their short comings. that's just not going to wash. we're not going to let it happen. >> you see, my argument is not about the american's right to defend themselves in their home with a firearm. that's not the argument i'm

trying to put out. my argument is the same as what senator feinstein said, what i believe many, many americans believe, following this tragedy which is there's absolutely no use or justification for this ak-15 assault -- >> oh, contrary. how could you say such a thing. the korean merchants in los angeles use these firearms to protect their lives and businesses. and for you to say there's no useful purpose for these guns, that's just completely wrong. >> okay. let me finish my sentence. there are these assault weapons which have been used now in movie theaters, in shopping malls, in elementary schools to murder many, many americans. and now 25-year-ol0 five-year-o children. and murdered 100 in a movie theater. and your only argument, mr. pratt, for people to get rid of both the magazines and

assault weapons if i'm not mistaken is to let everybody else have similar weapons? is that the solution? >> i would challenge you to go and tell the korean merchants who survived the riots in los angeles, sorry you didn't have those firearms to save your lives. >> can you answer my question? >> i'm answering your question. >> would you like to see teachers armed with -- >> you don't want to hear it, that's why you keep interrupting me. >> no, no, i don't mind hearing it. i think it's quite nonsense. >> well, truths seem to do that, don't they? >> stop being so facetious. post what happened at sandy hook, your answer to this problem of repeated use of this weapon with high-capacity magazines, is to continue letting americans buy them with impunity, and to not concern yourself with these mass shootings, is that right?

>> the second amendment means what it says, and meanwhile, you want to continue laws against self-defense. laws that prohibit self-defense. laws that prohibit teachers and other faculty. other members of the administration and schools from being able to defend themselves if they have a concealed carry permit. the laws prohibit them right now. we have been lobbying against those laws since they were put on. we will continue to do so, pointing out that that is where the problem is. and for you to support them means that you're really blind to the role that that plays in enabling murderers to operate within impunity. >> yeah, i know why sales of these weapons have been soaring in the last few days. it's idiots like you. mr. pratt, thank you for joining me. >> thank you for your high-level argument, mr. morgan. it's really good. >> you wouldn't understand the phrase of high-level argument. you're a dangerous man.

>> the role model. >> i know all about role models and you're not one of them when we come back, two members of congress who have experienced gun violence and what they want to do to make sure it never happens to anybody else. [music: artist: willy moon song: "yeah yeah" label: universal] ♪ everybody well don't you know it's me now? ♪ ♪ yeah who's it, who's it huh? ♪ ♪ willy's back with a brand new beat now, ♪ ♪ yeah doin' it doin' it up!

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president obama says he'll support a ban on assault weapons. will congress agree? joining me now two members of congress who have personal experience with the issue. caroliyn mccarthy. i'm still kind of shaking after my last interview, as i have been after several interviews with people who represent gun rights. it's the glibness of the argument. it's the callusness of the way they continue to justify the freedom of people who continue to use assault rifles. that's what they are, with these high-capacity magazines. carolyn mccarthy, when you hear this and the way the issue is framed what is your reaction?

>> to be honest with you, i'm happy that you had him on, because america should see what we're up against and the lies that they take to the american people, and unfortunately, an awful lot of them believe that. what we're trying to do is save lives. what we're doing after this shooting, and to be very honest with you, you're going to be hearing from my colleague, you know, what happened in aurora, and what's happened in the last several years. and the shootings get worse and worse and worse. and so that we need to do something. and i do believe, because the country cannot go through what they just saw these last several days. i believe the country will be on our side. i believe that we'll be able to get something done to make sure that we can protect certainly our children but the american people. >> ron barber, i came on air on

cnn maybe two years ago, just after the incident in which you were wounded and gabby giffords nearly lost her life and others did lose their lives. i imagine, following an attack on a congresswoman there would be such an outcry in america. there would be new gun controls then. but there weren't. then the aurora theater shooting, the worst in american history, there had to be some kind of change. but as the relatives of those who died who told me last night on the show, the president came and saw them and nothing happened. now, we have the worst school shooting in american history, is it ever going to change? or is the gun rights argument that was espoused to me earlier in tonight's show in that extraordinary way is always going to win the argument? or are other americans going to rise up and say enough is enough? >> well, i believe this terrible

tragedy, taking the lives of 20 little people, the same age as my two youngest granddaughters, has affected america in such a deep way, that we're in a position to have, not just a discussion, but the action that i think is necessary to prevent a reoccurrence. for me, it has to do with two issues. it's a very complex issue overall. but there are two things that i believe we can and must do. as somebody who has worked in the field of mental health for 32 years, i believe we have to do a better job of providing services and early identification of people with mental illness so we can prevent the kind of disturbance that causes somebody to do an act that happened last friday. and secondly, we have to take away, from those people, access to the kinds of weapons that can, in a very short period of time, create the kind of carnage that we saw then.

when i look back on what happened in tucson, on january 8th last year. the man who shot us was armed with an extended clip, carrying 30 bullets. in about 45 seconds, those bullets were discharged. 19 people were wounded and six died. and in the case of the school in newtown, we know that that's what happened again, even in a greater magnitude. i think we're at a point now where people said enough. every grandparent, like myself, every parent who has a young child, is looking at the situation and saying, we cannot let this happen again. so i believe that the american people are going to take a different look at what happened last friday. and they're going to demand, as they should, that those of us who have been sent to congress, to make action and to do what's right by our country, that we're going to actually do something.

and we must do something. and that's what my commitment is, as i think are many more members of congress' commitments. including people who have traditionally supported -- the national rifle association has supported by it. to make it clear, i'm a second amendment supporter. i believe that's a good amendment for our country. but we have to move beyond that. these weapons have no place in the school. as you your previously guest suggested. we have to deal with this problem on two levels. >> ron barber and carolyn mccarthy, thank you very much. should assault weapons be banned? i'll talk to alan given wits and jeffrey toobin. that's the cold truth! we've decided to we're all having such a great year in the gulf, put aside our rivalry. 'cause all our states are great. and now is when the gulf gets even better. the beaches and waters couldn't be more beautiful. take a boat ride or just lay in the sun.

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can't have guns without getting to the second amendment. the issue could end up in the supreme court again. alan dershowitz and cnn legal analyst jeffrey toobin. welcome to you both. jeffrey, i find it very hard not to lose my rag when i interview some of these gun rights people. because the way they express themselves always hiding behind the second amendment, their right to bear arms, which as far as i'm concerned can mean anything. it could mean everyone walking around with rocket launchers. >> but they're winning. they're winning in politics, they've won in congress and they're winning in the courts. this is a more conservative country than it used to be. for 100 years, the second amendment did not mean right to bear arms. >> that's fascinating. explain to me why. >> for a hundred years, the

constitution was interpreted to mean, state police had the right to bear arms because that's what the second half of the amendment says, as of 2008 after years of lobbying and appointees to the court in 2008, the supreme court said individuals have a right to bear arms under the second amendment. the law of the land now is that the government is very limited in how much gun control it can pass even if it had the political will to do so, it's not clear that it does. the victories of the republican party mean that gun control is harder to do in congress and harder to do in court. >> alan dershowitz, i might be wrong about this, but i've been following this for two years for a series of outrages. i've been detecting a different mood some many americans. i'm detecting they feel this is a tipping point. am i right? or do they feel this another shooting in the mass shooting catalog which is getting worse and worse?

>> i think you're right. and i think the evidence was a decision today by a large conglomerate to sell a gun company. the decision by the people in the teachers' union in california to think about selling stocks in companies that ont guns. when economists and people who have to care about serving the interests of their stockholders start making these decisions, it generally reflects a change in attitude. now, where i disagree with my friend and former student jeffrey toobin, i think although the supreme court rendered a decision on the second amendment, it left open a tremendous amount of room for reasonable regulation. and i think if congress has the will to do something today, i believe the courts, with some exceptions, will uphold any reasonable regulation. the 7th circuit just the other day struck down a very broad statute which said no loaded guns in the city of chicago, but

implied that if it was limited to schools, if it was limited to other areas it would be upheld as constitutional. look, anything that we do will clash with either possibly the second amendment or the first amendment, talking about restrictions on video games which a lot of the conservatives are talking about. or locking people up, based on predictions they will commit these kinds of crimes which would clash with the fifth or sixth amendments. i believe the least restriction on liberty is entailed under having reasonable gun controls sunday the second amendment. >> the nra has made a statement today. the key part saying they're prepared to make meaningful contributions to make sure this doesn't happen again. >> don't hold your breath. >> jeffrey, tell me this annoying -- what did he call me, a bucolic brit. as someone who went through, very similar, the children same age killed. which means we only get 35 gun

letters a year. it's the same in australia. many european companies have a similar rate. we just don't get how the nr are a is apparently so powerful that it's able to dictate policy on this on the way it does. is that going to change that micha michael bloomberg came out and said stop being so terrified of the nra. >> i think nra is just as powerful as they have been. and they have all the time in the world. the news media, we have a short attention span. six months from now, we're not going to be covering this story around the clock. but the nra is going to be working even harder. any debate about gun control will start to get bogged down in details which do you band, do you ban magazines and clips? and then it becomes very easy for the people who care about this issue to bog down the process. it's what they've always done and i think that's what they will continue to do.

>> alan dershowitz, what is it about the gun violence in america that's so unique here in america, and it is unique to any of the countries in the world. it's far and away the most dangerous in terms of guns. and how do you change the mentality that says really, any american, as mr. pratt believes the answer to any of these shootings is to arm anybody else with the same guns and weapons? >> see, i don't think it's the american culture. i think it's part of america that has that culture. and that part of america has that disportion kn♪ ♪ate influence. there's no gun culture. the nra is buying their data. they're buying their facts. they're hiring commissioners and sol so-called scholars to come up with this. mr. pratt, what he does was compare apples and oranges.

if you look at the busiest states in the united states, compare them to urban areas. if you compare any comparable area, new york to london, fax county to oxford, any comparable count, the united states with any comparable county, in europe or most parts of asia, you will find a tremendous difference between gun crimes and those gun crimes are not only associated with massive and unrestricted gun ownership but are caused by -- take another country, for example, israel, where obviously people need to have guns, there's terrorism. and there's almost no gun crime at all. in order to get a gun in israel, you have to have a 60-day waiting period. you have to take a mental health exam. you got to go to shooting ranges and pass a test. you can only get 50 bullets and that's a lifetime supply. there are enormous restrictions in that country that obviously

needs a law. it's cultural, it's that part of the culture is caring more about winning over our children than -- >> what i find extraordinary is the callousness of politicians in america. i don't understand why some of them aren't prepared to literally stick their necks out and say, i've had enough of this. there are so few of them prepared to take any kind of political risk. when 20 young kids have been shot dead in a school. >> well, let's see what happens. but it is political poison in this country to say you're for gun control in about 40 states. i mean, try running for office in texas and saying you're for gun control. you won't get nominated for dog catcher. >> being a politician, it's sometimes about taking a moral and brave and courageous lead, rather than worrying about your next election.

where are those politicians? >> they are around. there are some of them. but it is also true that some of them sincerely believe what larry pratt was saying today. they honestly believe that more guns will make it safer. it's politically advantageous for them to say more guns. the governor of tennessee, the governor of virginia started talking about that today. >> the reason i can't listen to this in any kind of sane way. the idea of teachers. we had an empire state building shooting a few months ago, where nine members of the public were all struck by bullets which came from two police officers, trained to use them, who had shot dead this one guy. nine different people from ricocheted bullets. only one in five was on target. we're expecting teachers with schools, classrooms with kids to go get a gun from where they have to hide it, pull it out and start using this accurately on a guy with an ar-15, this is the stuff of lunacy.

>> there are better ways of addressing school safety. i recently was in congress and the white house, and to get into any of those buildings, you have to go through one door first. it locks behind you. then you go through another door then you get tested for medal and everything else. >> good lord, alan. do you want to have elementary schools like the west wing of the white house. >> that's right, we need today -- and that's true in other parts of the world. today, we got used to it. look at buildings. you go to visit a law firm today, you can't just walk up to see the partner. you have to go and present i.d. it's the reality of life. it's far less restrictive of freedom if we have that, than if we start locking people up based on suspicion. start controlling video games. i think there are things that we can do to make sure school safer, they will require compromises with convenience. >> okay. one final very quick question for you, jeffrey, just struck me listening to this debate about

the second amendment. given it's so open to different interpretations. i read both arguments, you can argue it both ways. is there an argument for the second amendment to be repealed and to be clarified and be redrafted? could that happen? >> absolutely. the constitution can always be amended but you want to see a revolution in this country. i mean, the second amendment is embraced by the republican party with a great fervor. and a heck of a lot of the democratic party as well. you could see it revoked but it's not going to happen. >> jeffrey, quickly. >> every originalist should go back and carry the guns that were intended by the second amendment. muskets that require reloading. if you're a real originalist, carry an original gun. >> thank you very much. jeffrey toobin, alan dershowitz. we have breaking news on the september 11th attacks in

benghazi. and independent state review cited high levels of infi inefficiencies. the report go on to call the attacks. hillary clinton says she'll name a senior state department official to oversee high threat posts. stay with cnn for more on this. when we come back, inside the mind of a killer. what dr. oz says we must do to try to protect americans.

ever since we learned the almost unimaginable scope of the tragedy in newtown, people in this country around around the world have been asking the same question, why? what went on in the mind of this killer? why would anybody target children? and what happened to the families they leave behind? joining me now is dr. oz and

dr. michael hartley. welcome to you both. dr. oz, you were in newtown on friday. you spent time with the people there. s, as we said there, unimaginable tragedy. for them, it's very, very real. what was your experience like? >> well, two main things in my mind dominated the conversation. the first is there's this incredible grace that they have in newtown. they've come together. i think as most humans do when you face a catastrophic event that you can't make sense of it. they've come together, at the church, you could hear people crying out and being responded to. the other thing i heard, which is why i think america is captivated by the story. all the kids say, nothing ever happens in newtown. except now it does. it's unimaginable, just like it can to any town in america. that's why there's a call perhaps louder than in any event it's like this.

>> everyone is asking the question, there's no apparent motive here. you have a male with possibly asperger, we don't know this as fact yet. he certainly was at home a lot of the time. had social problems. seems to be very bright in certain areas, mathematics and played a lot of video games from that what we know about his profile, what do you think has happened here? >> well, the common thread going beyond what you talked about is that there is a murder. in applaud them for not sharing it. because it is what he thinks is legitimate. again, this is an indefensible act. and why it is so important for us, even when we consider him to repudiate his behavior as disgusting. because people are watching us, including people who are fan sizing about us talking about

them. if we don't collectively and the press and the leadership say this is disgusting, this is repulsive, but rather to say who failed him, then everyone who has a grievance like him, who nurtures it and then says, finally, i want my grievance to be heard because i'm anonymous. so the problem with this phenomenon, and it is a phenomenon. and i realize you've raised interesting issues about guns and we'll talk about video game violence. is there is an incentive for relevance and there is a vehicle of escapism of video game immersion that enables people who want to be deadened to crawl in the cracks and stay there where no one can discover them until it is too late. >> i think that is absolutely spot on. the issue of all these things, mental health, video game, guns and so on, actually all of it is to blame. it is a collection of events, situations in somebody's life who is disturbed that all

collides. i feel passionately about guns because without the gun here, this person couldn't have perpetrated the mass killing in the time that he did it. but he would have probably done something. >> he might have. on the other hand, i think we need a homeland security approach to mental illness. guns we can debate over and i'll let the politicians debate that. as a heart surgeon, i can treat you if you're having a heart attack and do just about anything to keep you alive. i can arrange a system to transport you to my hospital to save your life flx psychiatry, hands are bound. it makes it almost impossible to provide the broad scale support. the brains of these people, i know we'll talk about that. >> we have a picture of a brain. on the brain, looking at this picture. you've noticed pattern in many of these incidents. >> this is not my work. this has been well reported by pathologists looking at the brain of crazy people who have sociopathic tendencies. that green area in the front of the brain is the part that controls how we would verbalize

empathy. it is our goal and purposes. the reason our brains got so big over millennia is because we need that had large brain to connect with each other. it is missing in these people. so just to pick up on what michael said, they don't have a connection. you have to spae very different language and be very clear in what you're saying. they will interpret anything as being beneficial to them. these are people who torture animals because they can't defend themselves. >> we'll leave it there. doctors, thank you both very much indeed. it is fascinating material. we'll be right back. i gave birth to my daughter on may 18th, five days later, i had a massive heart attack. bayer aspirin was the first thing the emts gave me. now, i'm on a bayer aspirin regimen. [ male announcer ] be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen. [ woman ] learn from my story. before you begin an aspirin regimen. [music: artist: willy moon ♪ everybody well don't you know it's me now? ♪ ♪ yeah who's it, who's it huh? ♪ ♪ willy's back with a brand new beat now, ♪ ♪ yeah doin' it doin' it up!

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tomorrow, more on guns in america. the issue front and center across the country. tomorrow we're tackling it head on. our bringing together lawmakers, survivors, experts, people on both sides of this very contentious debate. we'll have kory booker, tom ridge, many others talking about the tragedy. the step america must now take.

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